Comments on Geek in a Suit: Shu-Ha-Ri not harmful... it's misunderstood and mi...

Thank you for this excellent blog post. You take a...

2011-06-13T18:05:40.932-04:00

Thank you for this excellent blog post. You take a nuanced subject and nicely demystify it. Well written, well reasoned. Thanks

I didn't mean that Shu-Ha-Ri itself was about ...

2010-02-13T06:24:07.123-05:00

I didn't mean that Shu-Ha-Ri itself was about rote learning. I was reinforcing your point that the model is ofen not used properly in the context of agile adoption.

That's a great model, Dave. But I think you&#...

2010-02-12T16:53:06.331-05:00

That's a great model, Dave. But I think you're perpetuating the misunderstanding about Shu-Ha-Ri. Most of the concept doesn't have to do with rote or not rote... the dojo itself determines the mode of learning... the point is to be only learning one system from one style of teacher until you have basic mastery.

This is more equivalent to, say, trying Scrum first, or Crystal, not Scrum/Crystal. The point is consistency, not rote. Most learning in Aikido IS experiential immitation... that's precisely the model. It's not bare rote... Sensei demonstrates, everyone breaks into pairs and tries it on each other while Sensei hovers and corrects. Then everyone switches pairs. It's more like Arlo's promiscuous pairing than rote boot camp.

Christian.

George Box is often quoted (paraphrased) as saying...

2010-02-12T16:38:13.647-05:00

George Box is often quoted (paraphrased) as saying, "All models are wrong, but some are useful."

Shu-Ha-Ri in the context of agile adoption is a model. I think it's a pretty useful one.

Another model I think is unwrong enough to be useful in the same context is a quote from jazz trumpeter Terry Clark: "Imitate, assimilate, innovate."

A jazz student first learning to improvise will imitate the greats of the past. In the process, he/she will assimilate the inner message, and begin to express individual music. A few, eventually, maybe, will innovate - take the art form to the next level.

To me, this is very similar to the Shu-Ha-Ri model. In some ways it might be easier to apply to agile adoption. It doesn't seem to imply that beginners have to do anything by rote. Instead, it implies they can learn efficiently by example.

This is fair... and I didn't take anything as ...

2010-02-11T11:50:10.512-05:00

This is fair... and I didn't take anything as an insult to my preferred art, to be sure. And you may be right about the age and solidity of the practices... but I do think that the approach applies, even beyond the physical. I regularly apply the principles at play here to mental practices, and in fact, the Ki parts of Aikido (for those styles which emphasize them) are taught this way as well, including the mental discipline.

I think what's happened, frankly, is that a complex and subtle training model is being rigidly applied in the coaching community... because it's, frankly, a fad. People who have never stepped into the Dojo bandy this stuff about as if they understand, and while it's ok, in that it IS a reasonable metaphor for graduated learning, it can be extended past its value, and applied like a hammer.

Having said that... a common thing I've seen in organizations which fail to implement agile is that they don't pick a style, get reasonably competent at it, then vary. They pick and choose, but don't have the actual sophistication to know what to choose, or why to choose a given practice, alter it, or reject it. I think Shu-Ha-Ri is often cited as a way to sum-up this problem, and as a means to counter it. It can have value there, but if it's rigid, or one-size-fits-all, then it will fail.

Christian, Thanks for this sensible response to m...

2010-02-11T11:31:45.747-05:00

Christian,

Thanks for this sensible response to my blog. I did not mean to sound critical of Shu-Ha-Ri as a sensitive way to teach Aikido. I also appreciate that there are different learning levels.

My concern is that the Shu-Ha-Ri model is being (mis)used to justify teaching software development teams to adopt practices without question. I agree with what you say, this is UNLIKE Aikido training.

Aikido is much older than software development and has moves that have evolved over many years. In Aikido there are physical skills to learn. Whereas, what is taught as agile involves a wide range of thinking and communication skills.

I would say that many techniques within agile software development have not yet reached the maturity for Shu-Ha-Ri to be applied in the same way as to Aikido. So talking about Shu-Ha-Ri for agile software development is potentially misleading.